254: Business, Lifestyle, and Routines With The Skinny Confidential 254: Business, Lifestyle, and Routines With The Skinny Confidential

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Katie: Welcome to the Wellness Mama podcast. I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com and today’s episode is a little different than normal as I’m here with Lauryn and Michael of The Skinny Confidential to talk business, entrepreneurship and navigating the dynamic of working together as a couple. Lauryn Evarts is a well known lifestyle and beauty blogger at The Skinny Confidential and her husband Michael Bosstick is a serial entrepreneur and founder of the podcast network Dear Media.

I met them in Finland with Four Sigmatic and wanted to have them on to talk business since I get a surprising amount of questions about that side of things and rarely talk about it. They also interviewed me on their podcast and you can listen to our episode here, where I share about my own business strategies and some parts of my journey you may not have heard before. As I said, I know this is a departure from our normal health topics, but if you’re interested in the business side at all, I think you’ll enjoy this episode. Lauryn and Michael, welcome. Thanks for being here.

Lauryn: Thanks for having us.

Katie: I’m so excited to chat. So for background I was in Finland with you guys. We were there on the Four Sigmatic trip. My audience has heard me talk about that quite a bit but I would love to hear your guys’ take on it a little bit what you felt like some of the lessons, especially health lessons you might have learned from Finland. I know we’re already all huge Four Sigmatic and super food mushroom fans. But were there lessons that you felt like came out of Finland?

Michael: Yeah, learned that it was cold.

Lauryn: It was definitely freezing. I would say that one of my favorite wellness lessons was the hot-cold situation. I think that they take so much time to get really hot in the sauna and then get really cold in the cold plunge. And I think that that’s something in America that we forget to do, and I think we do have access to that at our fingertips. I mean, we can get in a freezing cold shower every morning and shock the body. I think that that reminder in Finland was the importance of heating the body and then getting really cold was really important.

Michael: I mean, for me, it was just a really good reminder of pushing the comfort zone, right?

Lauryn: Yes.

Michael: We’re here, we’re in Los Angeles right now, weather’s nice.

Lauryn: We’re sipping on White House water. This is White House water.

Michael: Yeah, it’s good. You get complacent. Okay, pushing the comfort zone. When I got back, it was like “Okay, wow, there’s a lot of things out there that made me very uncomfortable.” It was very cold, it was difficult as things that we don’t normally do here. And it kicked me into gear when I got back in like, okay, you know, it’s okay to push the comfort zone. It’s actually a benefit, like, thinking about a different way to do things and making sure that you’re not getting complacent in life, I think it’s a good reminder.

Katie: Absolutely.

Lauryn: I loved Finland, I would go back.

Katie: I know, I’m so sad the lights are gonna be gone for eight years, the northern lights aren’t coming back for eight years.

Michael: We got lucky.

Katie: We did get lucky, but I think we should have an eight year reunion and bring our families.

Lauryn: That would be fun.

Katie: And see the lights again because I was like amazing, like life-changing.

Lauryn: Staying in the igloo to was, I mean, so cool to be in the snow in the middle in the igloo and all the foods we ate and just like to see the culture was really spectacular.

Katie: Yeah, I think the culture was huge for me, because I already went into it with a huge respect for Four Sigmatic and understanding of the science behind their products, but to see the way that they lived and the way that the culture have respected these foods for so long. And also to see how difficult it is to forage and grow and get them, just like it blew me away, like I have a whole new level of respect for them.

Lauryn: Yeah, even, I mean, the amount of sun that they have. You come back to sunny LA or Florida or whatever and you just have such you’re like, “Wow, this is incredible, we get this much light.” I mean, how many hours is it? It’s like that’s the Grateful alarm, right?

Katie: The Grateful alarm, which I took from Finland..

Lauryn: The Grateful…we’re grateful we met in Finland.

Katie: So grateful. So for anybody listening who’s not familiar with you guys already, I would love to hear a little bit of your story and also the explanation behind the “Skinny Confidential” and where the name came from and how you guys both got involved in this together.

Lauryn: I decided to…well, first, I guess I was in the sorority for five minutes at San Diego State, and this is about nine years ago. And I saw that to be in a sorority, it was $800 a semester. And I thought, “Oh, wait a minute, I didn’t have $800 first of all to be in a sorority,” and that was the culture at San Diego State. So I thought, “Wait a minute, how can I do exactly this, but do it online and not just reach the people at San Diego State? How can I reach someone in Japan and Australia?” I’m, by nature, a very curious person, like I wanna know what’s in your skin cabinet and what spices you use and, you know, what time you wake up in the morning. I’m just a curious person. And so I wanted to get all, you know, these women from all over and get it in one spot and sort of create a resource where women could go.

And so I started…I was at school, I quit the sorority, and I’m bartending, teaching pure bar and Pilates during the day, going to school full-time, and I thought a blog. And at the time, you know, this is 2010, a blog is not a way people are thinking you’re gonna make money. They didn’t get it, it was a very weird thing. I wanted the “Skinny Confidential” to be a place that women came to get the tips, to get the tricks, to get the juice, to get the skinny. So I wanted to also make it cheeky and witty and fun, and self-deprecating. So I put all these words, you know, next to each other in my notes up and the “Skinny Confidential.” it was like getting the juice. And it took me a year to launch, which looking back I wish I had launched faster and adjusted to, you know, consumer feedback.

But it took me a year, I was very meticulous about how I wanted to roll it out and what it was gonna look like and sort of how the audience would go there and what they would leave and just what the value would be in the blog. And so I mapped it all out. I worked with a web designer and paid him $50 a month. No money, like no money, $50 a month to create the website, and I launched it in 2011. And from there it’s blossomed into a book, podcast, YouTube channel. Michael was not involved till about two years ago.

Michael: Yeah, I mean, I think we talked a little bit, though, but I’m more like behind the scenes. I was running traditional brick and mortar businesses, started in real estate, started in 2008. Guys, if you started in real estate, don’t start in 2008. Luckily, we’re past that now. Wrong time to get involved. But you know, I never thought that I would be doing something that was this front facing. I was also behind the scenes person, building direct to consumer business online, investing a little bit as we talked about running traffic for brands. When I say that like basically helping them build and sell online, it was very early on Facebook and Google.

And to also go back a little bit I had always been pursuing Lauryn since like 12 years old, which is kind of a funny story. We met in elementary school and I was just chasing her all, she kept denying me. And then when we graduated college, she finally decided to say yes. And so we’ve been in a relationship ever since and now married. But along the way, as you can imagine, and you can relate to this, her platform started to grow and she started to broaden the topics outside of just like health and wellness and more lifestyle. And obviously, as her significant other people, started asking questions like, “Who the hell is this guy? Why is he always in the background? What’s going on?”

And so I’m not the best on social, but I like to talk. And so I said, “Hey, why don’t we do a podcast together?” It’s something that we can kind of own together. She still has her blog, her platform, which she very much controls and runs. I still have my businesses, which I still very much control and run, but we found this medium together that we have fun at, which is podcasting. So let’s start that. We launched that a couple…almost three years ago now, in March, and since then it’s blossomed into a pretty prominent show. And now my current role is I’m the CEO of a company called Dear Media, which is a primarily female focused podcast network that we founded. I have 30 different shows under management and growing, and that’s kind of our story. It’s like kind of a roundabout way to tell it but it’s been a really interesting medium to be a part of and like see how this whole influencer blog social space has evolved.

Katie: I love that, and the lesson from you definitely is persistence. I love that you pursued her for that long. Can you tell a little bit more of that story? Because you told it in Finland, it was hilarious. You’re like, “We were 12. It was…”

Lauryn: We met when we were 12 in sixth grade, and I was…I say this because it’s true I was 5’7″, which is the height I am now, and he was, like, 4’1″.

Michael: I tell the story all the time. I seriously thought she was a substitute teacher. She came in…

Lauryn: Because I was new to the school in sixth grade.

Michael: She came in out of nowhere. I was probably like 4’2″ at the time. I was a young man.

Lauryn: Tiny.

Michael: Tiny. And I was like, “Who the hell is that? What’s the new sub?” And it turns out she was like oh, she’s in our grade. Shoots, you are a year older.

Lauryn: Yeah. And I had like big boobs for that. Like everything was…for some reason I just developed sooner.

Michael: I had a girlfriend at the time and I was like, “Listen, we’re over. I gotta go.” I said, “I gotta go.”

Lauryn: So we got together when we were literally 12 years old and, you know, we’re “together” I put that in quotes because it’s like, what does that even mean?

Michael: Just kid stuff, you know, how it is.

Lauryn: 12, 13,14, got caught in the closet by my dad with no top on, like, just dating each other and then we broke up. You know, it’s the whole…the age-old tale of the girl goes for the older guy. You’re in high school, you know, like you go for the older guys, you start to hang out with, you know, 9th graders, 10th graders.

Michael: It wasn’t fair because I was still 4’2″ too, so there’s not a lot I could do at the time, you know.

Lauryn: So we separated for a long time, I would say for like 10 years, and then he was always pursuing me through high school, even through college, like always… And I was like, dated other guys, he dated other girls. Dated, is that what we want to call it? I don’t know, dated, whatever you want to call it. And we ended up getting back together and it was really the foundation of our relationship was based on friendship.

But I also think what’s so cool and unique and maybe not unique, but it’s something that I like about our relationship and I think you and Seth have the same thing, is that we’re committed to the same goal, we’re on the same team, and I don’t just mean within our marriage, I mean, within our business, within our vision for our life. Like we know the vision that we want for our life in 5 years, in 10 years, in 20 years, and we’re both really on the same rollercoaster. Sometimes I see in relationships, people, you know, one’s on the roller coaster and the others on the merry go round, and they’re not committed to, you know, the same sort of outcome. So that’s something that I think is unique about our relationship. We also work together not on everything, but on the podcast together, and that’s been very challenging but also extremely rewarding.

Michael: Yeah, I mean, to get a little sappy for a second. I was looked that I’m working from a winning position because I feel so happy with Lauryn and like, we’re already so aligned and like the life we’re building. And so, if the business grows or if this happens, or something bad happens, I always feel like I’m at a solid platform, to begin with, and everything else is just an added icing on top of the cake.

Katie: I love that. And I’m grateful too, I have that other…like you Lauryn, the secret weapon of my husband who understands the tech and business side really well. And I think that combination can be really powerful. And I also know a lot of people listening are trying to get into the entrepreneurial world in different ways. And that might be real estate, like you mentioned in your past, or it might be a brick and mortar business, it could be an online business. And I know from experience, there is a learning curve to working together. And you guys seem to have this great chemistry of doing that and both your snarkiness and your conversation on the podcast, but also, just like you said, the common mission. So do you have any tips for people getting into that world of business, on the entrepreneurial front and about how to keep your sanity?

Lauryn: I would say that everything that’s ever happened, and I put it in quotes, “in my life” is based on one word, and that’s practice. Practice in anything is what makes you good. You have to practice. And if you’re a blogger, that means putting in the practice day after day after day after day and practicing over and over. If you wanna get better at makeup you practice over and over. If you wanna have a really solid relationship, it takes work and that’s a practice. So with us, with our podcast, we’ve been practicing, I don’t wanna say chemistry, but we’ve been practicing the dance that we have over and over and over and over again with all these interviews. So I think that that’s definitely the foundation, is practice.

Michael: Well, I think one thing we touched on when you on our show is really defining the roles, right? Like I have my roles within the business, she has hers. I go to every day to this office that we’re sitting in and, you know, run this team, she runs her team, and when we come together on the podcast. Like when it comes to the creative of the “Skinny Confidential” I don’t touch that at all I don’t…nothing to do with my world. Maybe on the financial side, maybe that falls a little bit more into my wheelhouse of managing the team.

I think, like Lauryn said, it’s not only practice but for young people and young entrepreneurs, it’s tasting a lot of different things. So for me, that you know, starting in real estate and then going into some direct to consumer goods and then running advertising, like Seth, doing some client service stuff for a while, I tried so many different things in so many different industries. If you would have asked me five years ago, if I thought that I would be the head of a female-focused podcast network, or if I even would have a podcast of my own, with no media training, like didn’t study it in school, there’s no way. And now it’s a great passion of mine and like we really, you know, built a business off this.

I think, where people get in trouble, especially in 2019, we have so many options, is that they think that they need to launch directly into this one career to start and they get so frozen up and like. “I didn’t find my passion,” right? “I don’t wanna do…” And so for young people, especially when you’re in your early 20s, and even like 30s, go out there and try different things, go work for somebody, go try a different company, go try to create and you’ll find what you like. Because like I said, I would have never thought I’d be doing anything like I’m doing now. And by having the different diverse background that I have, I’m able to kind of now step into the role that I have and Lauryn has, but I wouldn’t be able to do that if I just set out to just, you know, do this from the beginning.

Katie: That’s such an Important point. I think, at the core, entrepreneurship is solving a problem. It’s finding a need and solving a problem. And that’s something that’s a core value for us in our family with our kids, even. It’s funny that you mentioned you guys were 12. We have a 12-year old, that’s crazy to think. But our goal with them…

Michael: Get ready.

Katie: Oh, gosh, he’s over there reading his life right now when we’re on this podcast. But our goal with them has been to teach them and at least give them the skills to be entrepreneurs when they’re older if they want to. Realizing, “I think that entrepreneurs can do a lot to improve and change the world.” And so for our kids, they’re gonna finish up a lot of their traditional school by about 13. And then we’ve kind of created an incubator for them when they’re in high school of starting businesses. I think the failure is actually very much part of the journey, like that’s how you learn. So even if you’re not winning, you’re learning, you’re not losing.

Lauryn: Totally.

Katie: You’re learning. And so I love that you guys have that same story. And I think also, Lauryn, something you mentioned in the beginning about you had this community and sorority and you wanted to create that in a more meaningful, wider spread way. I’d love to speak to that more because I think that’s a core missing need in today’s world is true community. And I think that’s something we actually felt in Finland, that made it so special, is we bonded in this short amount of time because it was real, we were out of our comfort zone, we had shared experiences.

But I think so many of us were connected on social media where we have more connectivity than we ever had. But we’re actually less in community and less relating to other people. And I think just from what I know of you, like, I think that’s why people gravitate towards you online, is that you feel very real and they feel like they can connect to you and you don’t hide the imperfect parts of yourself. You share them and you come across with this amazing vulnerability. So I’d love to hear you speak to community and how you drive that in the online world.

Lauryn: I think as an influencer community, if you’re baking a cake is the flour, it’s so important. For me, I couldn’t do anything I’m doing with my platform without my community. That’s number one. So when I wake up in the morning, you know, we talked about priorities, and I know that this is one of your priorities as well. One of my priorities is to engage with my community seven days a week. That’s, you know, taking a half an hour in the morning and responding to 100 DMs, that’s going in my secret Facebook group and liking and commenting and engaging. That’s going into Snapchat and checking my messages and engaging, returning e-mails.

I’m a huge believer in concentrating on the people that are already following you than going out and getting more followers. And I think that that is, unfortunately, I think that that’s not happening a lot. I think people are constantly looking for more and more and more and they’re not focusing on what’s in front of them. If you focus on what’s in front of you, the people in front of you will go out and they will influence their friends, which brings more community.

And for me, my community is a lot of like-minded women, that’s, you know, non-judgmental community. Like in the Facebook group, we talk about everything from orgasms to today’s like vagina… I mean, it’s so many different things. And the space is so non-judgmental because I’ve really worked hard to cultivate that.

And I think that if you’re an influencer out there and you’re listening, my number one priority would to be engaged with the people that you already have. And it’s like, what you said earlier on our podcast about how, when you first started out, you knew your audience. You knew those 200 people so well, that you knew about how many kids they had, or you know what color lipstick they liked, like those things, it matters in the long run.

And I think it can’t just be about how many comments you get, or how many likes you get, it has to be about those actual relationships. And that may mean doing meetups and getting off social media and doing things that maybe are not always on Instagram, you know what I mean? Sometimes you have to get out there, and I think we’re gonna see that a lot in 2019, 2020, is influencers getting off the screen and actually into real life and getting to know the people that have supported their platform.

Katie: And that’s such a good point and something you do well already, and I think that everyone could learn from, is if you don’t have natural community just built in or your community is online, you may be the one that makes it tangible. You start a meetup in your own area or like, find some people and be like, “Hey, you’re are my people, let’s actually create a mom’s night. Let’s do a girls’ night,” whatever. Like, let’s create this because I think we’re seeing that so much in society, like I said, that we have this true need for community, that’s not happening.

And you mentioned the non-judgmental community. And I wanna go deep a little bit on this because I think social media has gotten so judgmental, I know, you must hear it too maybe less than I do. I get such hateful comments where people…the majority are very positive, and the community is awesome. But there are people I feel who like they feel protected by that veil of social media to say things they would never say in person. And I think especially in the mom world, sadly, you’ll find this if you have kids. I think we have this a little bit of insecurity about we’re all trying to do the best about raising our kids, we’re wondering if we’re doing it right. So we project that into like having to prove ourselves right. And to like prove that our way is the right way or to belittle other people in doing it and we see that so much.

So how do you create that non-judgmental community? Or what advice would you give to those of us as social media users? Like how do we get social media to move in that direction so it’s not so judgmental and volatile?

Lauryn: I’m a huge believer and this is how I am in real life and online is what you think about me is none of my business. It’s none of my business, and I really have gotten to a place after nine years of putting myself out there seven days a week where I just don’t care. Like and I think you almost develop again, that’s the practice, going back to the practice, you develop this armor that you start not to even care what people’s opinions are. With that, I think it’s liberating. You start to I mean, for me, I’m so comfortable now with putting myself out there. When I have kids I’m going to put out there what I do, and if someone doesn’t like it get off my page, there’s an “Unfollow” button. I mean, and I’m really am that up front and in your face about it. Michael’s even worse.

Michael: But there’s a distinction, right? Like if somebody comes in…let’s talk early days of the podcast. When we launched it, the quality wasn’t up to par like. We were interrupting. We had never done it before so we’re learning as we went. And so you look at that feedback, the initial feedback, a lot of it good, but a lot of it, you know, negative. They’re, “Interrupting, the topics are not right.” You’re saying like, “Okay, that is all very valid.”

Lauryn: Constructive.

Michael: We look at that and we say, “That’s true,” like we need to improve that, we take that feedback. You know, I look at those people commenting is, like, people that care and actually want us to get better.

Lauryn: I agree.

Michael: So we address that and we work to improve. But somebody that comes on says, like, “You’re ugly, or I hate you, or you’re not doing this right, or like what,” like, those people…

Lauryn: One of my friends, “You shouldn’t be breastfeeding your kid after this age.” No one’s gonna tell me how long I breastfeed my kids when I have kids. I mean, maybe my opinion will change but that’s how I feel about it.

Michael: Those things are disregarded, right? I look at that as just troll behavior, like all those people trolls. We had Robert Greene on our show, and he calls them nihilistic trolls. And I think like those do not merit a response, that somebody that’s may be unhappy in their life, they’re upset with where they’re out, there deflecting. And so I deploy empathy there and say, “Listen, I get it, you’re not in the best place, but there’s no…” The last thing you wanna do is engage with somebody who’s coming from a negative space. If it’s constructive, then I think for any business, whether you’re an influencer, a product, whatever it is, that’s something you should think about like, “Okay, can I improve there?”

Lauryn: I also think I’m not for everybody. Like, I’m not for everybody. Like, my hair is very blonde, I have huge boobs, like, I’m loud, I’m obnoxious, I curse. Like, I’m not gonna be for everyone and I’m okay with that, you know. I know who I am for, and I have my community, and I have my community of friends or whatever, and my family. I don’t need to have everyone like me. And I think once…and I’m sure you’ve had to deal with this too, you go through all like these years of putting yourself out there. You just start to get to a point where you just don’t give a fuck anymore about everyone’s opinion.

Michael: There’s that word, that authenticity.

Lauryn: You can’t even say it because everyone says it so many times.

Michael: Okay, but listen, I think, if you’re going to be somebody like yourself, like Lauren, that puts themselves out there, the only real way to grow online is to actually be yourself, and speak from your point of view, right? I think when you do that in a very relatable authentic way, like Lauryn said, you’re gonna get people that say, “That’s not for me,” that’s fine, you’re not for everybody. But there’s gonna be the people that are your community that say, “I really identify with this and I support it.” The people that fall into the biggest holes, and they have the hardest time building brands online is, like, “Maybe I’ve seen a version of ‘Wellness Mama’ and I’m gonna emulate that. Or maybe I’ve seen a version of ‘Skinny Confidential,’ I’m gonna try to copy that.”

That’s very difficult to maintain for a long time because it’s not you. And so what I can do is I can say, “Okay, this formula works really well for Katie, I don’t think I can do that. This one looks really well for Lauryn, I don’t know if I could do that. But I can take bits and pieces of things that I think I could do well and put it into my framework,” and then you can grow online. So where a lot of people make mistakes online is they’re just…they’re grabbing at somebody else’s formula and they’re trying to make it work for themselves and it’s not a sustainable model.

Katie: Yeah, that’s such an important point. I think, from the user perspective as well, like you’re right, Lauryn, I loved your point about other people’s opinion about you…none of your which is so great. I think a lot of us spend a lot of time worrying about other people’s opinion. And from a lot of reading I’ve done that goes back to those unanswered questions of our own of like, “Am I lovable? Am I safe? Am I whatever?” We’re actually trying to answer our own question or trying to get someone else to answer it for us. I love that you’ve gotten to a point where you aren’t concerned with people giving you affirmation to make you feel confident in who you are.

Lauryn: It’s taken a lot of work, though. It’s not something that like I just woke up with. It’s something… Michael and I were talking about this the other day. I’m with myself a lot and when I say that, I mean, I’m inward a lot. I’m thinking a lot. My wheels are spinning. I’m practicing stoicism, I’m writing, I’m journaling, I’m meditating, I’m spending time by myself. I think with social media now it’s so easy to be upset, but get on your phone, and it’s mindless, or scroll through Instagram or do something that takes your mind off what’s actually going on.

And I think when you get quiet, there’s something that’s really powerful about just being inward. I think we’re gonna see a wellness trend that I think is gonna happen, is a lot of people are gonna start to realize that we’ve all been looking outward for all these different things, and other’s opinions and the likes, and the comments and the follows, and does this person like me? And why isn’t this person saw the DM, but they’re not DMing me back? All these different things that are happening with social media and all these dynamics that we’ve never really had to deal with, and they’re gonna start to realize, “Wait a minute, like, we need to spend an hour a day practicing on being inward.”

Michael: Do you remember when I think probably around the same age, like getting to college and like Facebook’s like first coming out, and we all got the digital camera, and you take like 50 photos and you upload the entire album, right? And you didn’t care about like who’s liking it or who’s sharing it or what they’re saying.

Lauryn: Or if you FaceTune or.

Michael: We were just sharing an experience, right?

Lauryn: Yeah.

Michael: I think we’ve moved away from that, like there’s studies now it says like, “If a kid posts a photo and doesn’t get X amount of likes within the first two minutes, they delete it right away.” Like that’s a sad space to me it’s, like why can’t… I think people need to really analyze it, like why am I actually sharing on social? Why am I actually writing on this blog? Why am I actually talking on podcast? Is it to really connect with the community put out meaningful content, share something that you really like? Or is it for vanity metrics?

And where people and young influencers are running into trouble is like, like to your point like, what are you actually building this for it? It comes to this thing with, like, if you have a platform, your micro influence, you have 5,000 people look at you, deploy gratitude, it’s like, “Wow, there’s 5,000 people,” which is a lot of people paying attention to what I’m doing and saying, “Let me service those people. Let me engage with those people.” All these people, they get those initial audience and say, “Okay, well, now I got 5,000, now I gotta go get 10,000, I got to get 20,000.” No, provide valuable content, engage with a valuable community, and that’s how you grow in any space, in any business.

Katie: Yeah, and you mentioned, Lauryn, stoicism. I think that’s another great point, is that we’ve lost the ability to be bored or just sit with discomfort at all. And I really worry about this with the upcoming generation of kids because so young, even in their toddler years, they’re not able to detach from constant engagement, constant interaction, constant technology. So tell me how you guys found stoicism and how that’s part of…like what parts of your daily routine relate to mindfulness or stoicism. How do you integrate that?

Lauryn: Well, Michael is staring at me and we get it, Michael. He’s staring at me with beady eyes because he’s the one that introduced me to it. So he got me the book, “The Daily Stoic” by Ryan Holiday, probably two years ago.

Michael: I was reading. I read a bunch of different things and like was looking at philosophy. And it was always difficult to kind of identifying with it, and also digesting it the way that these writers used to write it, it’s complicated writing, right? I really liked writing by Seneca, and during that process, like just kind of going through with a fine comb, I was turned on to an author named Ryan Holiday, who’s since then become a friend, been on our show multiple times. And he wrote a book called “The Obstacle is the Way,” which is a lot about obstacles in our life and how you overcome them, and how you can look at them and analyze them. That’s a really great place to start in my opinion with stoicism.

And then just consecutively wrote a book called “Ego is the Enemy,” which is all that how we identify the ego. And then after that, he identified as a writer saying, “Okay, listen,” a lot of this stuff that he does is based in stoic philosophy, and it was difficult for a lot of us to consume because of the way these writings were written. And so he wrote a book called “The Daily Stoic,” which basically taking excerpts from stoicism and then putting them in layman’s terms and kind of helping to frame them out a little bit in a more digestible way. So Lauryn and I, we read that book all the time, daily, kind of compare, talk about it, we have a lot of our friends reading it, we just like…I think it’s a very practical philosophy.

Lauryn: And also, with how it is laid out in this book, it’s something that you can do every day. Like sometimes we were like, read this and it’s like 800 pages and it’s too overwhelming. With this it’s one page a day. When you pick up the book, you start on the date you’re at. So say you pick it up today, whatever the date is, I have no idea. You would open it up to that day, you wouldn’t start from the beginning and it’s one page a day. I think that that’s what makes it so great is it’s not overwhelming and it’s just a thought that you can put in your mind. So today something really upset me earlier in the day, and the way I reacted would have been completely different if I had not read stoicism this morning, which I find myself starting to…when I start to lose my logic and go for my emotion, I find myself being like, “Wait, am I acting stoic in this moment?” It’s really helped me with that.

Michael: You know, like one of the things, I think it was today or yesterday, was basically making the point that most people don’t set out with bad intentions. They are just looking at a specific instance from their set of eyes and the way they view the world. And so it’s not like necessarily bad intention but maybe you take that….maybe somebody said something and you take it in a bad way, in a negative light. It’s because maybe you’re having difficulty looking at it the way that they’re looking at it. And so, immediately what do we do? We become defensive, we become angry, we create a situation that may not necessarily need to be there.

And so with stoic philosophy, it’s like being able to step back and say, “Wait a minute, they’re not doing this to be mean, maybe the way they delivered it is not the best way.” But you can take that moment, and really it is just taking that moment to say like, “Hey, do I need to react to this? Do I need to be upset by this? Like, can I look at this from their point of view from fresh eyes?”

Lauryn: And to answer your question, I like to do it in the morning because I feel like obviously, that’s the foundation of the day. And I like to do it while I’m drinking my coffee in a peaceful place with a little bit of music in the background and it literally takes 5 to 10 minutes, it’s very quick. So it’s nothing overwhelming.

Katie: I love that great advice. And I love Ryan Holiday as well. What’s the rest of each of your morning routines? Because I’m a big fan as well, I think how you frame your morning frames your day. So do you guys have different morning routines? Are they the same? How do you frame your morning?

Lauryn: Could not be more opposite! It’s like Yin and Yang. I am very, very anal about my mornings. In fact, I noticed as I get older, it’s like getting worse, it’s out of control. I think that my life is so chaotic and my job is so…it’s not sitting from 9:00 to 5:00 doing the same thing, not that there’s anything wrong with that. In fact, I actually envy that, to be able to sit down at a computer and be able to like check a to-do list off. It’s like, it’s here, it’s there. It’s movement, it’s up, it’s down, it’s traveling. You never know what you’re gonna get, it’s a lot of personalities.

So in knowing that my day is going to be chaotic, I have to have a normal routine that happens the same thing every day and I have to keep my cortisol down. And I used to wake up and, you know, as a blogger, for the first five years, I feel like every blogger can relate to this. You hop on Instagram, you’re reactive, you’re responding to text messages DMs, you’re looking how many Instagram comments you get, you’re scrolling through social media. I stopped, I had to just stop doing all of that. It was not starting my morning off on the right foot, it was starting with cortisol and chaos.

So I like to wake up around 7:00 or 7:30. I have to sleep, I’m not one of those people that can not sleep. I need at least eight hours of sleep and I’m anal about it. And then I like to wake up. I have this hydro floss by my bed and already has like mint and lemon and it’s freezing cold because it stays cold, which is amazing. I drink water in the morning. I mean, I feel like everyone drinks lemon water in 2019, but I do drink lemon water.

And then I sit up in my bed after I’ve opened the blinds and I think that’s so awesome, what you said on our podcast about light. I let the light in the room. And that signals my brain that, like, it’s time to wake up and then I sit up in bed. And the reason I sit up, just to get really specific, is because you’ve been laying down all day. So to get that lymphatic drainage and all the fluids that have been, you know, accumulating in your face down, I think, is really good for you. And I meditate for 10 minutes, sometimes 15, and Michael knows not to bother me in this time.

Michael: I run for the hills.

Lauryn: I’m a devil in the morning, like a pitchfork if he bothers me. And then I wake up, I make the bed every morning. I’ve done that since I was three years old. I think it’s so cool what you’ve done with your kids. My parents were the same way. It’s like hand…you can make your bed. So I’ve done that every single morning. I don’t want Michael to make the bed, I wanna make my own bed.

Michael: Makes it easy for me.

Lauryn: Yeah. And then I do this thing that Aubrey Marcus always talks about, which is light, movement, hydration. So the light is the shades are up. The movement is I walk to get coffee. So this is something people are like, “Well, why don’t you just get coffee to your house and make it at home?” But the whole thing is getting outside, like you said, getting the light, getting the movement, and kick-starting your brain into something knowledgeable with the podcast. So I don’t wanna check my phone. I don’t wanna respond to text. I don’t wanna call anyone. I wanna walk to coffee with a podcast on. It needs to be a podcast that is educational. I don’t wanna listen to gossip. I don’t wanna start my morning like that. It has to be something that’s gonna motivate me or provide value to my life. I get my coffee, I walk back…
Michael’s like… Sorry, I’m getting specific, I’m telling you exactly what I do every morning.

Then I make my coffee. It’s a whole five-minute ritual. I have all my stuff in the cabinet. I’m like you, where it’s like, I am always evaluating my time. And I’m not gonna have…and that sounds stupid, but it does save you time, 20 different cabinets with everything, like my coffee is ready to go, I can put it down, I can make the coffee. And then I sit down and I do my stoicism.

Yeah, I mean, I could go on forever. I’m specific about…I wanna start my… And if I’m in a hotel, I try to do something similar so it feels like normalcy.

Michael: We live very… I mean, obviously, Lauryn and I connect in a lot of ways but like I mentioned earlier, we live different lives. So as soon as we’re in my office now, when I walk in these doors at 9:00 a.m., it’s, you know, putting a lot of fires out, right? There’s a lot of…there’s big team, different shows. And so when I come in here, it’s, you know, I’m just basically… I honestly don’t even know what’s really on my schedule until I sit down in this office. And because of that, in the morning, I need my time and I need some wins.

So I’m up every day at 5:00 a.m., between 5:00 and 6:00, like first the thing I do when I get up, I’m chugging at least 16 to 20 ounces of water rather quickly. Then I’ll try to get at least some type of meditation in for 10 and 15 minutes. And then, I like to be able to like sit and enjoy coffee or some type of warm beverage in the morning with lemon water or coffee or tea. And during that time, I’m either reading or writing in a journal just to kind of like get my thoughts going.

And then without fail every day, pretty much five days a week I run to the gym, I have a gym that’s close by or I go to Joe’s gym. And I’m in the gym, I really like to be there as the sun’s rising. It just feels like there’s an accomplishment. And keep in mind like during this time, I’m just thinking a lot of like, nobody’s bothering me, nobody’s e-mailing me, nobody’s calling me. And so it’s that alone time. Come home, just shower, normal stuff, get ready. And then by the time I get here, I just feel like I’ve gotten so much done in those first three hours with no interruptions that I can kind of take on the day. Whenever…

Today like I was a little bit behind the eight ball and I didn’t get a lot of that stuff done so I feel like I’m on the defense whole time. People are coming at me, I’m like, “Shit, I didn’t get to take a look at my inbox, I didn’t get to answer e-mails, I didn’t get to organize my day.” So for me, it’s really important to get that morning routine in because it sets me up for success for the rest of the day.

Lauryn: And I feel like us waking up at different times, like for me, personally, that really works. By the time I’ve made my coffee and read my stoicism, I’m right away doing a workout. This is another thing that I save time at, I don’t go to a gym. And the reason I don’t go to a gym is because I noticed that I was taking an hour workout and it was turning into two because I would go there, I would run into someone there would be traffic. Oh, I’m gonna stop to get a coffee. Oh, there’s a bird. The teacher wants to talk after class. It was taking up my time. So now I work out at home so I can get right back into work the second that I’m done. My day is all about maximizing my time. I think if you’re a mother that my routine would sound overwhelming. I’ve never had kids so I can’t tell people to do this routine. It takes me probably 35 minutes without the workout, and if there is a way that you can wake up 30 minutes earlier, I think it’s worth it just because it gives you sanity.

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Katie: And you mentioned lymphatic drainage. And you’ve written about this as well. I wanna talk about it because I realize I’ve written about it, I’ve never talked about it on the podcast. What do you do to facilitate lymphatic drainage? I’ve done dry brushing for years. I’ve also done wave vibration, do you do dry brushing as well? And if so, is that part of the morning routine?

Lauryn: What’s wave vibration?

Katie: It’s like a plate that vibrates your body really quickly. And so that kind of speed… I think dry brushing is actually a much cheaper but also equally effective. I think wave vibration can have some other benefits as well. But do you do dry brushing as well?

Lauryn: I love dry brushing but here’s how intense I am. The dry brush that’s on Amazon was not gnarly enough for me. I feel like you’re gnarly like me, like you want the coldest, you want the hottest, you want the extremes. So I bought a dishwasher brush at Rite Aid, and it’s the sickest of thickest bristles, and I use that to dry brush, and it’s 10 times crazier and it really works. It’s hard when you have a spray tan, I will say that, you have to get creative.

It’s like that meme with all the numbers above, calculating when you should do it. But I became obsessed and infatuated with lymphatic drainage when I got major, major jaw surgery. I had double jaw surgery, they broke my jaw upper and lower, and I was swollen for three years. And the only thing that would get rid of that swelling for days was lymphatic drainage and facial manipulation, and a lot of ice.

So I started to realize that there’s something that you can do at home that’s free, which is your hands. And you can do it manually and it takes like pounds off your face, it’s crazy. Today I went and got lymphatic drainage. My face is like this and then I do it and it just tightens, because it’s so much fluid in your face from laying down or drinking or salt or all the things that we’re eating or metals, whatever it is. It’s so important to facilitate the lymphatic drainage.

So if you’re at home and you wanna do it right now, take an oil, put it on your face, and then make sure you take your hands to your nose and go out from your nose to your hairline. And then the most important part is you take it down your neck.

So a lot of people massage their face but they don’t take it down the neck so what ends up happening is the fluid sort of gets clogged. But I think it’s the best kept beauty secret because it rubs out fine lines and wrinkles. You’re tightening and contouring your face. And for me, like how many times do you wake up? I guess not you, because you drink dry farm wines. Swollen in your eyes people think, oh, you’re tired, no, you need to drain your lymph system. So it’s a gross word, lymphatic, I feel like, isn’t the sexiest word, but it works.

Katie: I love that. It is a perfect segue into another question because you are known much more online than I am in the beauty world and as a beauty blogger. And I feel like you have a lot of great tips on your blog and my audience is super busy. So I would love to know if you can consolidate it, if you only have like maybe 10 or 15 minutes a day total to everything related to beauty, what would you prioritize?

Lauryn: If I had 10 minutes a day, which by the way, when I do my own makeup it is 10 minutes, it’s maybe even 5 minutes. Definitely get a beauty blender, make sure it’s damp. The trick is to make sure it’s damp. It’s got to be damp, it can’t be a dry beauty blender. Use that to apply caffeinated sunscreen because that’s gonna tighten your skin. So that’s gonna give you a really nice canvas to put CC cream on. I love CC cream, it’s full coverage, it has sunscreen in it, I like IT Cosmetics. Dab the beauty blender with that, it’s a damp beauty blender so you want to run it under the water and squeeze it out and then put the CC cream on top of the sunscreen. I would brush my eyebrows up because I think that that’s super youthful. And I mean, that’s really all I would wear probably on my face.

If my manicure was chipped, I would throw on CND clear nail polish because, you know, you’re giving me 10 minutes, I’m getting really specific. I would throw on CND clear nail polish. It’s like a great top coat and makes your nails look all shiny. I would have accessories like ready to go. So everything, like I said, and I’m sure you’re the same way, it’s systems. It’s like having it right there ready to grab.

And then I would, you know, probably throw in a little dry shampoo. I like dpHUE Apple Cider Vinegar Shampoo because I barely wash my hair, and I would put some blood orange perfume on, and I’m out the door. I mean, I think that CC cream is the trick and all of it, it’s so full coverage and it’s just provides you with really pretty dewy, fresh, youthful skin. Was that specific enough?

Katie: That was super specific, I love that. Do you have a skincare routine as well? I haven’t had many guys on the podcast so I’m curious. That’s a less talked about area.

Michael: Do you know what’s funny? It’s like I had…I always tell this on the podcast, like for the first 31 years of my life I look like an old weathered saddle. I basically used my upper wrinkle area as a sleep mask, it was falling over my face as many I… None of us guys grew up with…I don’t think, or the majority of us, let me rephrase that, learning about skincare or beauty routines or how to take care of ourselves, right, we just get up, throw some water on our face.

Lauryn: Wait till you see my future firstborn. He’s gonna have a full 10-step.

Michael: One of the benefits of the podcast is we’ve talked to so many skincare experts, doctors. And so at this point sitting in my seat, you’d have to be kind of a dullard to not at least pick up a few things. And the biggest things I learned is just a daily skin care regimen that doesn’t… Listen, men don’t have to have this complicated thing, like Lauryn always jokes that she coerced into it. But really it was like, okay, putting that exfoliator in the shower next to the shampoo or soap, that’s easy, okay, throw it on your face.

Having a serum, like whatever the serum you use, next to your toothbrush, okay, that’s easy. It takes two seconds. And then having a good moisturizer and sunscreen, like really like…and just doing that consistently. It really hasn’t been that hard but honestly, like if you would have seen me a few years ago like very dried out, wrinkles deeper, like you just…I feel clearer. And it’s not because I had some big epiphany, it was just like having the conversation be like, “Wow, the skin is the largest organ in the body.”

Lauryn: It’s your face, you have it forever. It’s not like your face is going anywhere.

Michael: It’s understanding. Yeah, I think just more men…it’s like we’re not opposed to doing this, we just don’t know. And so when I started seeing and talking to these people that are, I would say, authorities and experts in like understanding the health benefits and getting rid of dark circles, that really dark circles, and just understanding how to do it in a very simple way, where it’s like I’m already in the shower, I’m already brushing my teeth, I’m already combing my hair, it’s not that difficult to add these products in.

Lauryn: I also think it becomes sort of like a me time. You said self-care is non-negotiable, to take five minutes for your skin in the morning and at night is not a big deal, and it’s me time. For me to be able to you know, use a really nice serum that’s gonna plump and make my… It’s something that’s nice to do for yourself.

Michael: It’s become routine, like I noticed if I don’t do something, I’m like, “Oh, I forgot.” It’s almost strange to me to not do something now because it’s been just… It would be like going for a few days and just and not brushing your teeth. It would be very weird right?

Lauryn: I also think for 2019 and 2020, one of the biggest beauty trends that is happening is preventative. It’s like preventative skincare, preventative beauty, preventative wellness. Prevention is where I think everyone is headed. It’s fixing…I don’t wanna say fixing, it’s addressing that there is going to be a problem and getting on top of it before it actually happens. So, you know, I just think with skin, with men, men, get on your skincare today.

Michael: Good tip is a look at your parents became your grandparents, right? Like my dad looked, that guy was in the sun a lot, some wrinkles like, “Okay, it’s very probable that that’s what I’ll look like unless I can do some things to prevent it.” So, you know, if you’re interested in taking care of your skin, I think you should, you know…there’s a lot of very easy things you can do. It doesn’t have to be these crazy over-invasive surgery.

Lauryn: That, or I’m gonna make you get a face lift when you’re 60.

Katie: To your point, Michael, because I hear from a lot of women mainly because that’s the audience, who asked like, “How can I get my husband to do this?” And I’m like, “Well, first of all, you can’t get your husband to like you can’t with your kids. You’re not their parents, so respect their independence.” But you can always educate. But I think what you said about make it convenient and make it practical, that’s the key for guys.

Michael: Don’t start them on like a seven-step, right? Like.

Katie: Exactly. And put it in their shower, put it by their sink in the bathroom, on the toilet or whatever, depending you know, where it is, where they’re gonna be.

Michael: I sympathize with men because everyone’s like…well, they come to Lauryn and say, “How did you get Michael to do this?” It’s like, “Well, listen, I’m talking to people on podcasts, I’m talking to doctors.” And it’s like I said, like I’m sitting front row to these things, a lot of men aren’t. But starting as simple, like get just a simple exfoliator that you could put next to their shampoo. Something, a simple serum that you put next to their toothpaste and toothbrush, like a simple moisturizer or sunscreen. Those are very…don’t overwhelm people.

Lauryn: Here’s a hot tip. Go and get your favorite serum that smells delicious, and go over and over and over every single night conditioning. Make oohs and ahhs like, “Oh, this feels so good on my skin,” and get into bed and be like “Plump, dewy skin, it feels so good.” Wake up in the morning, “Wow, my skin is so moisturized.” Do that over and over and over and over again until they’re in. You went into my bathroom the other day and you stole…

Michael: She thinks those oohs and ahhs get me excited to skin care. They give me excited for something else but not in skin care.

Lauryn: You now, it’s a slow manipulation, it’s slow.

Katie: I do have the feeling though, Michael, Lauren seems pretty persistent. I would guess there’s a persistence there as well. You pursued her for 10 years and now she’s been on your skincare.

Lauryn: You can’t be doing your forehead over your eyes.

Michael: She’ll call me out. If I come up looking like a dried out prune, she’ll just look over me and be like, “You better take care of that.”

Katie: But the practicality is key. One odd tip that I found that’s super helpful, my dad’s…there’s two supplements that I like universally recommend, probiotics and K2, which is like an anti-inflammatory, helps kids grow, etc. And I knew my parents getting older needed both of these. He’s like routinely pretty bad about remembering to take stuff. So he taped it to the salt and pepper on his table, because he always puts pepper on his food and now he never forgets because he touches that every day at meals when you’re supposed to take it. So I feel like for guys make it practical, that solves most of the problem. It’s such a good advice.

Lauryn: I’m gonna tape Dr. Dennis to your forehead.

Michael: It’s true though. I mean, that’s a simple…I mean, there’s a lot of women that write into our show, “So how do I get…?” Listen, just don’t make it overwhelming and over time, like you know, maybe there’s a face wash, maybe that’s all it starts at.

Lauryn: You can’t get too wordy either. I feel like men tune out when you get too wordy. It’s got to be like, “Here’s the serum, it’s by your toothbrush,” run out.

Michael: Yeah, she’s got a lot of my friends on it now too.

Lauryn: I also got him on tongue cleaning. I was like I cannot be married to someone that doesn’t clean their tongue, you got to clean your tongue. Like I gave…stocking stuffers this year for my entire family were tongue scrapers. You got to be scraping your tongue. And now you scrape your tongue every day.

Michael: Yeah, I actually look at people’s tongue and go, “What’s going on with that tongue?”

Katie: I love that. I’m a huge geek when it comes to oral health. That’s one of my favorite research subjects. In fact, we are in development, I’ll announce this year, on a toothpaste. It’s like remineralizing probiotic, totally natural toothpaste, because I think so much of health starts in the mouth. And I think a lot of people get that one piece, wrong and if you can just fix that with an easy switch it makes a big difference, but you’re right on tongue cleaning, it’s so important.

Lauryn: I cannot wait to try your toothpaste. I bet it’s gonna be amazing.

Michael: I was just telling Lauryn, I hate the toothpaste that we have, whatever that is.

Lauryn: All right, well, now we have a new toothpaste.

Michael: So we’re getting new toothpaste.

Lauryn: Yeah, I bet your toothpaste is amazing.

Katie: So okay, I wanna respect your time, both of you, I know you’re very busy. Lauryn, any other real quick beauty tips or trends or things you would recommend for women to do throughout the day or just in general, like things that you feel like really move the needle for beauty?

Lauryn: I think if you’re in a pinch, forget the eyeshadow, and I just think do like a cream concealer on your eyelid. I also think that there’s this lip mask, it’s called Langie, L-A-N-G-I-E, and it’s a lip mask. So you would think, “Oh, I’m gonna do lip mask at night.” What I found is that I use the lip mask as a lip gloss and it stays on like for hours. So that’s a time saver, you know, instead of reapplying lipstick or lip gloss every five seconds you can just use that.

Another really great product is Pillow Talk lip liner. If you wanna have bigger lips in five seconds you can overlying your lips with that. It is the exact color of lips. And there’s something about it, it’s across the board, I’ve talked to tons of girls that it just works. So you do that with your Langie lip mask and that’s great.

And then a tip that I’m obsessed with spreading right now is silk pillowcases. I was noticing that my hair was breaking. And I noticed that I was getting pimples and I noticed even fine lines by my eyes, and it was all because of the pillowcase I was using. So you’re spending, you know, seven to nine hours laying down every night, you better be thinking about what’s happening there, right? So if you have pimples all over your face, and you’re wondering why, you probably need to wash your pillowcase more. If you are seeing fine lines around the eyes, you probably should look at what you’re sleeping on. And even for my hair, I noticed it breaking so I would say get a good silk pillowcase. I like the brands Slip or Discover Night, they’re both great brands. You can’t go wrong with that.

And yeah, another really quick little tip is when you wash your face, make sure you’re not using the towel that you washed your body with. I have tiny little towels, Michael doesn’t even know this, I got him these little IKEA $1 towels, there’s 20 in our bathroom. Marie, what do you call it? Marie, you said it last night.

Katie: Marie Kondo?

Lauryn: Yeah. They’re rolled like that and they’re there ready for him, and when he uses the towel, it goes in the wash. And I think doing that, you’ll avoid so many blackheads, whiteheads, pimples. Just little tips like that that are not super expensive, I think, make all the difference in the long run. You know, what I mean?

Katie: I love that. And to circle back to a little bit where we started earlier on, I always ask toward the end if there are books, eBook or a number of books that have really changed your life and what they are and why selfishly, I’m always looking for a book recommendation. So you mentioned stoicism, but are there any others?

Lauryn: I love “The War of Art,” not the art of war. I love “The War of Art.” We were just reading that yesterday. That’s another one that you can just open up and just read, you know, one page a day and you’re good. I’m a huge lover of biographies, I read all the time. Right now I’m reading Olivia Newton-John’s biography. I just finished Dolly Parton’s. Who’s another one that I just read? Kris Jenner has an awesome biography. I love to read about successful women and see their history. I’m obsessed with seeing like their childhood and their teenage years and, you know, in their 20s and watching that. I just read Alana Stewart’s autobiography and her experience with Rod Stewart. I just really find a strong women’s autobiography as really intriguing so I’m always reading.

Michael: Yeah, we read a lot. One book I always recommend because I just think it’s easy for somebody to jump into is a book called “Managing Oneself” by Peter Drucker. He’s obviously known more for management. But there’s a really short and quick book, it’s like 50 pages and it’s small, you could read it in an hour. And it’s basically a way, like it teaches you more about how you communicate, how you think, how others perceive you, basically how you manage yourself. And I think it’s a really great starting place to build self-awareness.

And then I’ve really been on a Charlie Munger, kick lately is Warren Buffett’s partner. I think he’s really witty, I think he’s extremely smart. He writes a lot of great work. And he wrote a book called “Poor Charlie’s Almanack,” which is based off Ben Franklin’s. He did another one. But I think it’s more just talks that he’s done and life lessons that he learned. I think that’s a really great place and you could just jump in, read a few pages. So those are two books I really recommend and like, on Lauren’s blog, we have a section where I recommend books. I’m here and there, and so yeah.

Katie: I’ll link to that as well. I love…those are new suggestions, I can’t wait.

Lauryn: Yeah. Lots of books, lots of podcasts on the site.

Katie: Awesome. And for anybody who didn’t know you guys already, where can they find you online to stay in touch?

Lauryn: I’m at the “Skinny Confidential” and theskinnyconfidential.com.

Michael: For me, I think the best place to find is probably on our podcast, which is just “Skinny Confidential Him & Her” podcasts, it’s on Instagram’s “TSC” podcast. I’m not as active on social. And also for all the other shows we’re working on Dear Media, you can just search Dear Media online or dearmedia.com and see all the shows. But yeah, the podcast is where we put out most of our content and we’ll put out your episode.

Lauryn: We’re gonna put out your episode. You guys gotta go listen to Katie.

Michael: Yeah, that’s all.

Katie: I love it. It was so much fun to be on yours. I’m so grateful you were on mine. Thank you guys for taking the time, this was awesome.

Michael: Thank you.

Lauryn: Thank you for having us.

Katie: And thanks to all of you for listening and sharing your most valuable asset of your time with us today. I’m so grateful.

If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.

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